Interview with Mestre Aparicio Bolinha

Who is Mestre Bolinha?

Mestre Bolinha

Aparicio do Nascimento, better known in Minas as Bola 7 and throughout Brazil as Bolinha.

Mestre Bolinha was one of the first mestres formed by Mestre Suassuna in the group Cordão de Ouro.

Today he is a well renowned musician, and lives in Itacaré (state of Bahia) where he has a long running popular musical show.

Mestre Bolinha began his musical career in 1964, a career that led him to meet Dirceu who took him to train Capoeira with him with Mestre Brasilia in 1969.

Once he started training Capoeira he never stopped, always seeking to enrich it with his music and his values.

Mestre Bolinha was a fundamental piece in the assembly of the show Dança dos Quilombos that Mestre Suassuna presented at that time.

We were fortunate to meet Mestre Bolinha at the event Besouro Preto in Barcelona, and he very kindly agreed to an interview.

Thank you very much, Mestre, we are extremely grateful for your time and affection!

Listen to the original audio interview here (Portuguese)

Interview with Mestre Bolinha – 15th November 2016

To begin, can we ask how and when you got started with Capoeira?

When?

Well I started capoeira in 69, in 1969 in the last century with Mestre Brasilia.

I became a professional musician in 1964, though I’d messed around with music since I was a kid. I moved to São Paolo to work, an inland city close to my area, before this I’d only been in the state of São Paolo on cruises. So I went to the capital and began to work at night with music, I studied at the municipal school and the San Caitano art foundation and played at night in the boîtes, where arose the possibility to get into recording.

I did some recording for a friend who was a very sought after muscian, he had two places to record and he asked me, he said: Look, as I have two places to record, you do one for me, don’t put it in your name, but I’ll make sure you get paid for it. Your name is not written there but the payment is yours, because on that day you’ll do it for me and I’ll do it elsewhere.

It was here I met a very important Brazilian drummer, he was among the 10 best in the world, called Dirceu, who made his first albums with Mestre Suassuna. It was then that Dirceu told me, I trained judo at the time: Bola po, you are a negro, and want to do sports of Japanese and gringo, come to capoeira, you’re a musician, it has music and everything.

There I went, and the first jogo I saw was a jogo of Mestre Brasilia and Mestre Suassuna, I fell in love on the spot, and more or less quit judo. I was in love, training all day from two in the afternoon until nightfall, hooked, right. I was a purple belt, and they were going to move me to brown belt, I was smashing everyone in the gym and I was well-trained.

foto Suassuna y Bolinha

Though Suassuna was there, I actually started training with Mestre Brasilia, but I left, traveled, stayed away three months, and when I returned I did not find Brasilia in the place where he was. Then down the road I found Dirceu who said: Suassuna is there at Federico Esteiras, you go down like this, the academy is on the right side in a predinho and on the left side there is a little spot there where my mother lives (his mother had a pension there where many musicians lived).

So from then on I started training with Suassuna. In my time it was Tarzan… the first class I took after returning from Itabuna I took a pasting, it was really tough, but then never again did I leave Cordão de Ouro! I traveled with Brasilia, spent six months in Japan with him, and we traveled to the United States together, but I stayed in the Cordão de Ouro and I’ve been there until now, since the 70s!

So who do you consider your Mestre?

My Mestre is Suassuna. I started first with Mestre Brasilia, but my Mestre is Suassuna. I graduated under Mestre Suassuna.

How is your relationship with Mestre Suassuna?

Very good, we are friends, we made music together, we traveled several places together … I did not travel with Suassuna abroad but in Brazil go everywhere collaborating on many things. I recorded several of his records. The last one I recorded and one that has the national flag on the cover, you must have seen it? My production, my direction … I did various projects.

When you composed Capoeira pra Estrangeiro, where did the idea come from?

Because at the time, very few capoeiristas traveled here, and when you went there you had the traits of the culture, yours, not ours. I said, ah, I was practically missing something so I’d say for the capoeirista that it is. It was a theme I heard at the time, one guy said: capoeira for foreigners é mato (Mato refers to overgrown, undeveloped remote area, i.e. forest or jungle).

I was in a fertile period of composition, I was doing several songs. I was never a songwriter, but I started working with an important person, an important poet in Brazilian music, and he started to write some lyrics for me to put with the melody. He had a special way of saying that the song was in the air, the melody, the theme of composing is in the air and if you were spiritually sound, you’d get the message. I believed in this, I just let the inspiration come.

I was in a good period of making music, I noted down anything interesting I heard. An advertisement, a meeting, an interesting word a guy said in the middle of the class, I wrote down everything. Then someone said to me, I do not know why, capoeira for foreigners was a jungle, because foreigners still did not know about capoeira. From this one line, I developed the rest of the sung.

At that same time Suassuna was developing se não fosse escravidão (if it were not slavery). So we started to collaborate, I helped him develop “if it were not slavery” and he helped develop “capoeira for foreigners”. From then on we became partners: he became a partner in my music and I was a partner in his music, we recorded it was great, I think it sells until today!

Do you have a favourite song?

When you start making music, you like the one you’re doing, when there’s another, you like the other, then the next, and so … So I don’t have a specific favorite, no.

There are the songs I like for certain situations, right? There are two songs I prefer to o open a show, they are “o navio negreiro”, which has mixed time signatures, and the one I sang first there [in the Besouro Preto event] is the “historia da senzala” with which I usually start my shows.

We had a show called “Dança dos Quilombos”, and I opened it with this, which was a preparation for me to make a speech, a monologue, a poem about capoeira in Brazil, about Brazil and Bahia, that Brazil was born in Bahia. It’s a text of a friend who is one of the great poets of Brazil. I made some adaptations with regards to capoeira, so I could talk about Master Bimba, Master Pastinha, yes?

This friend already has a song that was recorded more than 104 times by singers called the “Último pão de Arara”. Pão de Arara was a truck that leaves the Northeast during the dry summer, when it hardly rains, so many people are leaving the city. At that time there was little public transport, today things are improved, so, people go by bus. Back then though, they had to go by truck, and he says he was going out on one of those last trucks, across the dry land, the dying oxen, the dying animals, it did not rain and everybody wanted to come to the capital. He says that he was already in the truck to leave, on the truck with the dust choking everything, when a guy who was next to him said: “Hey Fella!” There was a guy outside sat on the ground, right, and them in the truck to go away to capital. The guy shouted again: “Hey Fella, let’s go! It’s not raining, it’s too dry, you’re going to die there, let’s go to the capital!” Then the guy who was on the floor, he said to him: “No I’m not going, I’ll only go on the Último pão de Arara, that the Pão de Arara was the last truck to leave. Then he wrote down the text and made the poem “só deixa o meu cariri no último Pão de Arara” (I only left my cariri in the last truck to Arara) and it was this work which made him famous, he was a great poet.

How did the idea of ​​creating the Quilombos Dance show come about?

Well it was going to be a show called Rasteiras and Baianadas, we’d more or less decided. There were some great afro dancers in São Paolo, Suassuna found one of them, Jurandir, and Jurandir began to develop ideas, Suassuna too, we all started creating, and so the show developed.

Jurandir was an amazing choreographer from the Municipal Theater and he said: “Suassuna, I’m going to create a choreography for you”. Suassuna accepted and he came and did the choreography with the group. We were about twenty people, all of us physically well-trained, I like the choreography so much, it was beautiful.

The first shows were a wonderful thing. And then I came up with the idea of ​​making the curtains, and every scene I had, I would come in the middle while the staff would prepare, change clothes and such, and I would make a theme. In the case of the opening of the show, the theme was Dance of the Quilombos, which is the story of Senzala: in the time of clay floor…

makulele facao

I made a script that we are all Bahians, spoke of the Bahian poets, Rui Barbosa the anti slavery campaigns of the English, I did the monologue, and then we joined with the capoeira, capoeira that runs in my blood, Mestre Pastinha, the shaolin of the Brazilian martial art, I made an adaptation and used it in the show.

In between every scene, every dance, when the curtain came down I’d come in with a song or a poem. Ah, in the part of the Puxade de Rede I wrote the song: A Minha Jangada… I also recited a poem, and then came the capoeira, and I also made a song that I sang there of Vinicius Morais and Baden Powell, that is: o homem de bem não trai, não trai

I did a speech, then a musical piece, and then entered Suassuna with the berimbau, and: eee so there, then we did a Preto Velho, which we made very funny, was very good. But then as time passed the show was changed and the Preto Velho finished.

Not long after this, we got a theater, we worked in that theater for a long time, the whole group, and many formed as Mestres, and we did many things, but with time the group began dispersing, one went to college, another went to teach, another left the city … we are very highly regarded, so much that we are the reference group for good friendship, right, and I am very happy about it.

For example yesterday we were there and Poncianinho, we raised Poncianinho from when he was very little, us here. His father and his uncle (Mestre Zé Antonio and Mestre Ponciano) formed with us. The first graduations we went there, to their city, and he was a child the size of Boca, so we, we raising him since he was small. Now he’s twenty-five or twenty more years, there’s everyone around thirty. I travel, I leave Brazil, I come to Spain, I come here and I meet Poncianinho with all that confidence, It really touched me.

Time passes, I’m not a kid anymore, I’m an old guy and I was very happy with the evolution of the guy, and he’s very well prepared both playing and talking, because for me he’s a damn treasure, kid Boca that we see there. I think I’m one of the oldest students in the Cordão de Ouro, I have not played capoeira in a while, but when I get back, I’m going to train a little to see if I shift that belly, just to play a little!

I’d like to know what dances they performed at the Dance of the Quilombos show

Well the opening was music, a text, a monologue, then it was the Dança do Fogo (fire dance) with the torches, after the fire dance, the Dança dos Guerreiros (dance of the warriors) entered, then entered the Maculelê and then, after the Maculelê was the Preto Velho, then entered the capoeira, we closed with the capoeira.

At some point did the Puxada de Rede come to be part of the show?

Ah, the Puxada de Rede was one of the main parts of the show. Our Puxada de Rede was very pretty, and at the end Suassuna would sing the names of different people: Such and such came? He did not come no… One day it was the name of Mestre João Grande that was in the audience, it was very cool.

I’d like to ask a bit more about the Puxada de Rede and its connection to Capoeira – we have been rehearsing it for our shows, but many people don’t know the history

The Puxada de Rede is the fishermen’s dance, when they “Pull in the Net” from the sea full of fish. It’s a lot of fish, a ton, so they would work together as a team.

puxada con rede no air

The Mestres do Mar, the guys that were really good at diving, would go deep down and place the net in the sea, where they’d leave it for a certain amount of time. They left it for a few days I think, I’m not sure exactly, but they left it for a while, and then when it’s time comes the Puxada de Rede.

The nets are so heavy, it requires many men all working together, as we do on stage, though in a stylised artistic manner of course. In reality though it was really tough work as it was so heavy, lots of fish!

Afterwards, all the fish is divided equally among those that helped pull in the nets. Though the show is softened a little, they really did draw the nets into the music. The rhythm helped the men pull together, and also the music helped them overcome the heavy weights they were carrying.

All the work I do not know, the more I think that every human being who works in the field, who works for himself, he always has a theme to distract his head and to help carry the weight, even though he’s poor. But poor in-between quote marks, because a fisherman for me and a rich guy because he does not need anyone, he goes into the water and throws the net and catches the fish, the food, he has everything he needs. I live in a village where several fishermen live, in Itacaré there is the river and there are many fishermen, there are fishermen so close to my house who work with shrimp, and there are women who go fishing in the river. So the Puxada de Rede is actually a work, the harvest of the fish.

Music is a very important part of Capoeira, but it is true that there are people who have more difficulties to learn than others. Also here, outside Brazil, people may not understand the language or the cultural significance of elements of the songs… What would be your tips how can we overcome these difficulties that we can have with the music?

You have to learn and practice portuguese. Listen to your Mestre while he’s teaching, learn the songs. Learning portuguese will help you get deeper into Capoeira, to really know what Capoeira is.

Capoeira is history, music, dance, geography, it is dance, it is information exchange, it is cunning, it is secrets. At the same time capoeira is eloquent, it is abstract, like music itself, it is its own sophisticated language.

I believe capoeira is going to be the sport of the world, because you do not have to fight in capoeira, you do not have to give a blow to understand how it works.

So it’s a very sad joke, when you play, you play for hours and hours and hours, you play well and you are learning, how did it go with that move yesterday, so, that’s what makes us happy because every human being when you threaten them, the guy defends himself. In capoeira you’re always threatening, and defending, it’s a game of life I think.

In life sometimes you have to confront attacks head on, and sometimes you have to avoid them, and capoeira teaches a lot that is really cool. I in my thinking, I believe a clever capoeirista is the fastest, faster through cunning and quicker perception, understood?

When I went to Japan, I wanted to sing in Japanese, but I could not. Then someone started to give me some tips and in the conversations I would take in a little bit, and in the end I did a repertoire of four or five songs, and it was great!

Train, be good in capoeira, but most importantly always make friends. Always smiling, always being my friend, not pointing blame or saying that I am better than so and so… none of this. There is a vibe there to relax, to grow in life, in the soul, we do not know what is there on the other side, right? So, you have to grow up as a man, respect your partner, respect your mestre, respect the environment, your boss, the boys respect the girls, the girls respect the boys, because you need to nurture a family environment to grow.

Our group was always one of pranks and jokes and having fun, but it was also about friends and family. It was about dancing and parties and having fun. At that time we graduated many new guys. Ah, the dancers of Suassuna were a problem when they arrived. Until today, if you’re in a roda in a t-shirt of cordão de ouro someone’s going to play hard to see what you’re made of.

And then the oldest people were going, while it was progressing, forming our capoeira: Who’s with Cordão de Ouro? Who isn’t, go now or the bogeyman is going to get you!

It was a way to encourage people to be ready, to be well-prepared, well-trained, but also be nice to everyone that isn’t. Sometimes, in certain groups, the guy who is in super shape thinks he’s better than everyone, all about the muscles.. but the cordão de ouro is a crazy group, all about dancing, playing, having fun, so this is cool, we’ll be making friends!

When I first joined I was young and I had different priorities, after you get older, you realise having friends is the true wealth. To come here (to Barcelona) to be with new people, meet you guys, see a whole new world, see the kids grown up, damn, it’s a blessing no?

Here in Barcelona we have a great community of Capoeira. There are many different groups, with different styles, but we meet up, collaborate and exchange ideas. Has Capoeira always been like this?

No, in my time, no. The business was very closed, if I went to your group it was to… to give a beating! I went to various meetings meant to organize Capoeira, but ultimately they all ended in confusion; one thought this, the other that, one from one side to the other.

Now you’re finding this thing very cool, you’re not required to play in the cordão de ouro, being friends with such a guy you can train with another group, another Mestre, another style. The attitude is when we meet let’s have a party, let’s fool around. I do not need to break your face or you mine, understand? So that’s what we’re going to do, let’s play, let’s work the move closer, closer, more objective, less intention to smash the other’s face. You do not need this, the sport is very rich, it gives you everything.

I have heard many good things here, the groups are different here but everyone respects each other, right? So, in the first place, that’s right, respect right. If you respect me I respect you, our friendship can be great tomorrow, we can use it as a business, as a family. So this language of speaking here, that the people here are getting along, the guy is coming from another group and such, but you have to always be wise, you do not know what the person is thinking, but it’s a good thing this collaboration.

Because I met people from various groups I travelled a lot, I went to many places. That boy who was there yesterday was Senzala de Santos (Mestre Ediandro) well I know his master, he’s Beija Flor who’s in France and sent a hug, we talked a lot; I have not seen him in years.

We talked a lot, the people of Santos are always every well-educated as people, almost everyone has a high-grade, and those who do not have are also very well brought up, great capoeiristas, so I went there a lot. Sometimes I went alone, sometimes with the Master Brasilia, sometimes with Master Suassuna.

I would see Suassuna sometimes, he would say “Bola we go to that place tomorrow”, and I would go with him, come on, let’s go to this place, let’s go to that place. The group went out sometimes to perform, and I would go to represent the group as I was already a Mestre, it happened many times.

So, this news that gave me that here the groups are collaborating, this is too good, it will raise Capoeira. Arrogance ends, right? There’s no need for arrogance, what for, right? Good life, for you to live a lot, always happy, to feel like living. So, for me, this interchange, this friendship that you do here is positive. The guy is from the other group but the guy is my friend, we are doing the same sport. He can have the language of his group and I have mine, so we will exchange information, this collaboration brings exchange, and it enriches everyone, right? Even if the guy is bad, he also educates, if the guy is a thug and gives a beating, maybe there’s no friendship, but you’ll still learn something!

-Intervention by Mestre Boca Rica-

Mestre, let me tell a story, when I was in Brasilia at an event: There was a guy, Azeitona, Negrão, the size of those doors, bigger than me. The roda was going, and then the Mestre did dodododododdon I do not know who was playing, I think that Rico was playing, and I made out that I was going to smash him, just to give a shock yeah, and the guy, the student, he was scared. It was me that was in the wrong, yeah, but then his Mestre who was Azeitona, this lunatic, starts beating the student! “Oh no, his Mestre was another, his Mestre was another: tomorrow I’m going to bring my students here, I don’t know about this, this running over the students, yeah”.

Then the next day I was giving classes and Azeitona arrived, “Hi Mestre!” I had not called him there, he came like this, strong … and I was like, fuck, right now we have a situation … I finished the roda and I said: Hey Azeitona, come on, man, I can make a sambinha de roda here with the guys… I did it I started to do the samba and I look at him, he walsk up, looking like he means business… but then he lets loose with the samba and starts dancing! Wow, there’s no problem here… “Good to hang out here with you guys!”

Mestre Bolinha Continues

So, these collaborations that we talked about only serve to enrich, you won’t stay young in Capoeira all your life, other people will come, but we grow. This event, what a fabulous day, and the night that we spent together there, let’s have a beer, another, let’s have one more, and so on… that business, so that’s what is good in life.

Instead of each going their own way, work together! And the other generations that will come can get better, they will be more organized, then there will be an eloquence that for us Brazilians is a wealth because, like that poem I did: “Capoeira is a good reason to be human, go to whole world, there are many houses to go to in the whole world”.

I think it can still happen, it is always improving, you here for example with a very good level. I do not know exactly where I’ll go next, but this year I have various travel proposals to go to various places. So, Poncianinho said he’s going to take me, Electrodo said now, right Boca? Remember?

I’m going to go to various places and I’ll see more collaboration still. This is for me who is already in the grip of good hope, so much for the old negro, thanks to the capoeirista, and great to be well treated as I am being here with you, it is a wealth, thank you!

A kid that practically I raised, we are their mirror, I come here now, twenty years later I see him doing such great work, with a family, with the difficulties of home and working, of this .. opening doors, making friends, for me a very big gift, I do not know if you can imagine.

Has Capoeira changed a lot since you started?

It’s changed a lot, very much, the movements have improved. It was very heavy before, no? Sometimes it would unleash a rage, to not return, but you have to return because you have to return, it’s training. All sports have their aggression, right, but the capoeira was very fierce, right?

People trained to hit, even when I started I took a lot of hits, but after I got the yellow cord, then you’re getting smarter. When life is hard you stay, you learn. Today the training is more educated, you don’t need to take a beating to learn.

You need to talk to know how it is, I took many galopantes, Suassuna didn’t beat our ears, because he didn’t want to make us bleed, but gave many hard hits in the head, in the back, so you didn’t drop the arms. He was much faster than us, much more knowledgeable. This change today I find very cool, because the kids don’t take a beating, but the child still grows!

So I think it has improved, the movements are very rich. Huh? So for me, I think it has changed a lot, it has already changed a lot from how it used to be. We could not stay in the same place that Mestre was, do you understand?

BOCA: It was like this even until when I entered –

M. Bolinha There were things of the hierarchy that still go on until today. For example, I was waiting to go down to the bar for us to learn; Because Suassuna would come to the bar and when he’d had a few he’d spill all the beans, yeah! All the guys would chip in a bit of money to pay for the beer, another guy went to buy some cheese, and so on… but always there was the business of the hierarchy… We went down to Toni’s bar, we always went to the bar under the gym, the boozer, each would buy a portion of cheese, a portion of ham, a portion of… then we’d ask them to cut into cubes. I would go down there and put it on the table, and everyone was already gathering here, and he was a good teacher, but it was very expensive.

“So… who is the youngest cord?” Asked Suassuna “Hey you kid, Bolinha”, he said: “Go to the market and buys half a kilo of cheese or 700 grams, and get it cut into cubes”. Oh, it was a problem you see, as you wanted to hear the conversation, right? Because it was in the chat that you learn a lot. I had to go to the market to buy the cheese and I got there and there was a queue, sometimes you lost 5, 6 or 10 minutes, and when you got back the conversation was already different, that was not very good.

What did we do? We tried to get a higher graduation so we did not have to go from the conversation, didn’t have to leave, right? So that I think still works today, that’s good too! Because I’m with a low belt today, I’ll work for you, tomorrow when I’m a higher belt, someone else will work for me, which is the hierarchy thing, right? That’s where kids learn respect, and it’s in this exchange that we learn. And what is this life for us, those who are so connected, open-hearted, and sincere? You will have your family, everything, to educate the children is good, it helps a lot. I think I’ve changed a lot.

So you think Capoeira has changed mainly for the better?

Yes, I think it’s changed for the better, and I think it will get even better, because sometimes without being able to spend time with the Mestres was, is very bad. You pay for the party, help out, I want to talk to Mestre So-and-so, I’m a fan of him I saw him playing, I saw him singing, I saw him giving a lesson, man! I want to hang out with him, I want to talk to him, and talk about how it is, his life, right?

So I think it’s good, it’s positive, it was very enriching, because before I could not hang out with the Mestres. So I think that’s very good, everyone hanging out and being friends. I felt pretty good in that party there, they treated me too well, the girls danced with me, so it was cool, yummy. So, do not create a barrier, the more friends the better, right? So I guess some things have changed, but okay, okay I guess.

Because the Mestre will not diminish because he is together with the students, understand? And the students need the Mestre, and the Mestre needs the students. It has to be the same, right? Well, if you do not have students, they’re the Mestre of whom, right? So this collaboration is very good, it’s very rich, I think it’s cool, very good.

With all your years of experience, what would be your essential advice for beginners in Capoeira?

Observe the environment in which they train, because it is this training environment that will shape how you develop, right? If you are in Capoeira exchanging hard blows, this is how you will develop, you’ll want to learn more strikes to fight back, you’ll develop this style. What a sarcastic environment, this fight that is embedded in the case of Capoeira, right?

There are other fights right? Ambience of brawling, atmosphere of discomfort, this is not cool. You can not pass on knowledge to a beginner when the environment is so charged. New students arrive all open to learn, but in that overloaded, false environment… the deception in capoeira is natural part of the game, but we should not be false with each other.

Imagine, humans are not perfect, there are still a lot of people who say one thing but mean another. And Capoeira the way it is learned, you must have contact with others to learn Capoeira. And I’m going to exchange the moves with him, so I think the student has to get into the environment, he has to come to Capoeira. Even though now you can see all the moves on video, to really learn he has to come, take the class. Come and learn!

Capoeira is the sport of those who are renegade, right? Because the negro was renegade, he was not even considered a human being! And he said it very intelligently, the explanation of the boy there yesterday, of Poncianinho, very good, because the negro was bought like an animal, and he created a sport like this that today is feeding humanity, that Capoeira is in more than 80 countries. It’s in so many places, Japan, a closed country, the Capoeira is there too. So the greatest dictatorships in the world, the greatest defense creators in the world, the old country, 3000 years or more, 5000 years. There’s Capoeira there! Collaboration is key, if you have a problem with them you lose the contribution they can give. In the past, when the blacks were repressed, there was much lost there.

Aula makulele

We have a lot of ritual dances that we do, right? There used to be many more, then, a lot was lost because of this thing of separation, of prejudice. Many great celebrations and dances, lost. Thankfully, some have been preserved, we have a dance called Coco that has 64 ways to play, and the pace is good. To dance is a delight! There is jongo, there are several things that have been left behind, but I think they will return, at some point someone will do this, right? Because the Maculelê was to be lost, Popó had a little information and managed to keep it alive. And Maculelê is a wonderful dance. You always get a bit lighter on your feet when you train it. It was fight, it was fight before, now it’s turned into a dance. So in the fight you work with the sticks, right? Turn the body here, turn the body there, go down, go up, it’s a very good art. After Maculelê do a capoeira class your body feels really light.

To finish Mestre, we would like to know why Bolinha?

Bolinha, because I’ve always been chubby, right! I had a time that I loved, when I was boxing and I was training really hard at Capoeira, but I was always chubby. At one point I was 30 kilos more than now, and I’m short, I’m somewhere between 160-150cm, a little guy and with 80 kg you imagine.

When I started in the musical life I was 7th Ball, then I left the interior, of San Lorenzo, which is the first place I work as a professional musician, which is in the state of Minas, I was Bola 7 (7 Ball), then when I arrived In São Paolo a guy said, “Hey, we already have a 7 Ball, well he is very short, he is not going to be Bola 7, he can be Bolinha (Little Ball).

So the name stuck, I made a great friendship with the musicians, right? Through everything, friendship, I was very well treated and to this day the music completes me, because also when I arrived I was treated well, I was not discriminated against, Bolinha because I was chubby. Dirceu kept my using my nickname in Capoeira, and it stuck.

Thank-you so much for your time Mestre – it has been a pleasure to meet and speak with you!

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